Friday, October 22, 2010

Theunis, Catholicism, and the history of religion.

Theunis in the Bill Donohue post has been making some claims.


Loving Jesus etc. I have repeatedly spoken of Christianity in the third person. Jesus, That wasn't even his name, never claimed to be the GOD of the Jews. It took the RCC +300 years to elevate him to that status. Even the Jews and Muslims acknowledge him as a great teacher, no more.
Well, there's certainly parts of the Bible where it clearly says that Jesus is equal to God. These are largely late Trinitarian additions.


How many times must I repeat that the RCC persecuted Christians. They started the RCC not Christianity. Who made Peter a martyr?. Who set themselves up as THE ultimate, The RCC not Christians.
Certainly the church was not kind to heretics. It doesn't make them non-Christians. You're after all selecting a group of Christians you disagree with and saying that their beliefs don't count.

Wasn't Emmanuel (Jesus) one of the greatest Psychologists/Teachers of his time ?

No. And frankly just because Isaiah says that the coming Messiah will be called Emmanuel and instead the character is name Jesus, doesn't mean the name was changed. It means the prophecy was wrong.

The Jews, downtrodden as they were, were given new hope. The Jewish Government/King actually started the persecutions because they feared they would lose power over their subjects.
There's plenty of persecution to go around in the ancient world.

The Romans in their declining years saw the power they could again grasp by controlling the people and the RCC, their official organ, did their bidding.
That's a pretty terrible understanding of the fall of the Roman empire. The Romans suffered fifty years of civil war during which all of the emperors were assassinated one after another followed by a massive economic collapse. The best way to get out of such a thing is through a totalitarian state. Much like the Nazis helped Germany recover after the fall of the Weimar Republic, the totalitarian state tried to save Rome. However after the first tyrant, the Christians took over and helped ram it into the ground again. The RCC wasn't the last ditch effort of Rome it was just mostly dumb luck. Followed by the Holy Roman Empire which was neither Holy, Roman, or an Empire. But, the Christians basically lucked into control of a dying state and helped it stay that way for the thousand years of the dark ages.

Can we as humans start again and and with an open mind read what is actually there (although this is difficult in view of the edits and distortions) and not interpret it to suit ourselves.
 We could. But why bother? Even a perfect copy of a work of fiction is a work of fiction. Even a perfectly interpreted work of fiction is a work of fiction.

Godlike beings, in comparison to the people of that time, is a fact recorded in history by many diverse cultures and peoples, sometimes couched in very esoteric language which was more appropriate to that culture and their language of the time.
There's no indication of anything. The Bible has very little real history in it, and has even less Godlike insights. It's basically the book that a bunch of bronze and iron age nomads would write.


I am a realist. I love the truth. When necessary I test for what is motivating the statement.
You're a truth loving realist and you think the Bible was written by Godlike beings? Why? 

I believe anyone can have his beliefs/opinions. To be fanatical, fight over it, is nonsensical and detrimental to inner peace.

 I believe anybody can have beliefs and opinions on account of the fact that that's basic reality. No. To be confused about what reality is can be detrimental to inner peace. The indicators suggest that Fundamentalists are the most at peace with their beliefs, followed by the atheists, and then the mainstream Christians.


I have not in any one instance defended Christianity or any other persons beliefs, I have only indicated some facts that life has presented me with.

I didn't take issue with your lack of defense. I took issue with your statement that Roman Catholics aren't Christians.

That Donahue and the RCC are fanatics is a fact, but to fight with them is only adding fuel to the fire which could engulf and destroy both parties.

Only if you were so silly as to lose. The idea that because one argues against a pompous windbag  that it's going to be somehow an even fight is absurd. When I, or many other atheists, argue with religion and religionists it's basically spearing fish in a barrel. It's really not that hard to win.

9 comments:

Theunis said...

"Theunis in the Bill Donohue post has been making some claims."
“Regarding the Roman Catholic Church” is a requirement in this heading.

"Well, there's certainly parts of the Bible where it clearly says that Jesus is equal to God. These are largely late Trinitarian additions."
A nice confirmation of what I said about the RCC warping and twisting the bible. As you say "These are largely late Trinitarian additions." which shows you are aware of at least some changes. Even recently a RCC spokesman said they had the power to change it.

"Certainly the church was not kind to heretics. It doesn't make them non-Christians. You're after all selecting a group of Christians you disagree with and saying that their beliefs don't count".
I did not say their beliefs don't count I said they were not true Christians.

"Theunis said - "Wasn't Emmanuel (Jesus) one of the greatest Psychologists/Teachers of his time ?"
No.
Well if you don't read it with an unbiased viewpoint and have no knowledge of psychology then you will most definitely not see it.

" instead the character is name Jesus, doesn't mean the name was changed. It means the prophecy was wrong."
Can I tell you about a modern prophet who in the 1920's saw Aids and said it spread like a mist of dung over the earth?
Of course not, You are a seeing is believing type yet even as you see them dying around you from Aids related illnesses you will deny that it was seen more than fifty years before the first case was reported.
The name Jesus is Greek and it was most definitely changed to the Greek form. (Even if it was not Emmanuel - to which I see your objection because Emmanuel means God with us).
From what knowledge base do you deny that the prophecy was not so?

"There's plenty of persecution to go around in the ancient world."
Theunis - Following your logic I must now say you are confirming my viewpoint even though mine referred to specifics and you are generalizing.

"That's a pretty terrible understanding of the fall of the Roman empire. "
I merely highlighted the decline of the Roman Empire and what they did in their death throes, so that you may have a reference point in time when The RCC really started.

"Even a perfectly interpreted work of fiction is a work of fiction."
This is merely your opinion. Go study some other histories so that you may become more knowledgeable about the past.

"The Bible has very little real history in it, and has even less Godlike insights. It's basically the book that a bunch of bronze and iron age nomads would write."
Go study some archaeology; the historical facts will astound you.
What do your computer programs of ten years ago compared to how you write them now look like now? At that time they were your best. In a hundred years or so someone may come across them and wet himself laughing. Did that detract from your program relative to the time it was written, can it then be classed as fiction? Definitely not.
If you cannot see the references then you are like some christians, who also only see what they want to. (This is not RCC based but a generalization)

Theunis said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Theunis said...

"The Bible has very little real history in it, and has even less Godlike insights. It's basically the
book that a bunch of bronze and iron age nomads would write."
Go study some archaeology; the historical facts will astound you.
What do your computer programs of ten years ago compared to how you write them now look
like now? At that time they were your best. In a hundred years or so someone may come across
them and wet himself laughing. Did that detract from your program relative to the time it was
written, can it then be classed as fiction? Definitely not.
If you cannot see the references then you are like some christians, who also only see what they
want to. (This is not RCC based but a generalization)

"You're a truth loving realist and you think the Bible was written by Godlike beings? Why?"
Go read what I said again. I said in comparison with the people of that time there were Godlike
beings, or should I rather have said - beings with knowledge far beyond that of the people of that
time who were then considered by those people to be Gods.
I did not say they wrote the Bible.

" The indicators suggest that Fundamentalists are the most at peace with their beliefs, followed by
the atheists, and then the mainstream Christians."
Whenever I mention the word Christian you jump up and fight. Even ripping what I said out of
context. This belies your assumption regarding the inner peace of Atheists.
You appear to love mind games so tell me or ask me what reality is. I may just answer you as the
yogis do whereupon you would say prove it, when in fact it is you who must disprove it because as
I read elsewhere - How do you know you are not a brainwashed person believing he is who he is
and not someone else. How are you ever going to disprove this ?

"I didn't take issue with your lack of defense. I took issue with your statement that Roman
Catholics aren't Christians."
Have you never heard of wolves in sheep clothing ?

"When I, or many other atheists, argue with religion and religionists it's basically spearing fish in a
barrel. It's really not that hard to win."
Dear me is that why 85% percent of Americans are Christians and your Atheism forms a minute
part of the remaining 15%. You have been at it for ages and still you haven't learned how not to
be egotistical. When two factions fight there are no winners. Both protagonists end up losing.

Theunis said...

Sorry Tatarize page one of my comment was refused as too big to process. It was apparently accepted But did not show. I then went out changed it in my word processor to make it smaller and when I got back there it appeared twice without any option to delete one of them.
It also said page 2 is to large to process but appears to have been accepted.

Tatarize said...

--"A nice confirmation of what I said about the RCC warping and twisting the bible."

It's not the RCC. There were edits by all the different religious groups. It's just that the Trinitarian edits survived. The Catholics are the intellectual ancestor of all Christians.

-- "I did not say their beliefs don't count I said they were not true Christians."

Define Christian. I suppose it has something to do with accepting Jesus as Lord. Catholics do that. Most excluding of Christians by Christians is ignored by me. Because it's silly ingroup fighting. They aren't True Christians™. Well if I accepted that as generally the way things worked, then maybe Oneness Pentacostals are right and only Oneness Pentacostals are Christian. Etc.

-- "Well if you don't read it with an unbiased viewpoint and have no knowledge of psychology then you will most definitely not see it."

Most of the stuff he said appears in other texts earlier. You can't amazing by reiterating what a lot of other things said, all the while giving some terrible advice.


-- "Can I tell you about a modern prophet who in the 1920's saw Aids and said it spread like a mist of dung over the earth?"

AIDS hasn't spread like a mist of dung over the earth. From the introduction of the virus to humanity in around 1900, it's spread like a sexually transmitted disease progressively adapting to humanity.

--"yet even as you see them dying around you from Aids related illnesses you will deny that it was seen more than fifty years before the first case was reported."

It was previously a slower killer prior to the evolution of VPU and it just causes the immune system to collapse. Deaths would thus look rather typical.

-- "The name Jesus is Greek and it was most definitely changed to the Greek form."

The earliest manuscripts are Greek. It might have originally been Greek. If the original story was fiction written in Greek.



---- "Even a perfectly interpreted work of fiction is a work of fiction."

-- "This is merely your opinion."

No. It's a statement of fact. A perfectly interpreted work of fiction is still a work of fiction.

-- "Go study some other histories so that you may become more knowledgeable about the past."

I am quite well versed in real ancient history. The backstory of the Jews is purely fiction. There was no great Empire of David. There was pretty much nothing going on in the 10th century in that region. Though we have a couple minor pottery shards.

-- "Go study some archaeology; the historical facts will astound you."

The problem is I have.
http://video.pbs.org/video/1051895565/

At best David was a petty warlord of a cow town. At worst he's fiction. Exodus, Genesis, etc.

In fact, the only external confirmation we can find is in the story of Hezekiah but rather than God turning the hearts of the invaders he caved and gave them a lot of money to spare them.


-- "Did that detract from your program relative to the time it was written, can it then be classed as fiction?"

If they couldn't function at all. That would be seriously problematic. If they not only couldn't compile but made no sense at all. There's an issue.

Tatarize said...

-- "Go read what I said again. I said in comparison with the people of that time there were Godlike
beings,"

That's worse. Ancient science by that time was far better than the Bible ever was. Reading some of the works of Euclid would be far more amazing than reading the Bible.


-- "beings with knowledge far beyond that of the people of that
time who were then considered by those people to be Gods."

The Bible isn't amazing. It doesn't have knowledge beyond that of the time. It has knowledge far worse than was availiable at the time. Most of these arguments about the Bible and Koran are mindnumbingly ignorant about the status of ancient knowledge. "Look the Koran knows about honey as a disinfectant!" -- Everybody knew about that.



-- "You appear to love mind games so tell me or ask me what reality is."

Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.
-- "when in fact it is you who must disprove it because as
I read elsewhere - How do you know you are not a brainwashed person believing he is who he is
and not someone else."

Evidence. Evidence is the deciding factor. It the only thing you can ever use to decide questions of what is and isn't true.


-- "Have you never heard of wolves in sheep clothing ?"

Which would be fine. But they are claiming to be Christians in all honesty. You may want to exclude them, but they fit any definition I ever tend to use.

-- "Dear me is that why 85% percent of Americans are Christians and your Atheism forms a minute part of the remaining 15%."

Because reality is no where near as comforting as a good lie.


-- "You have been at it for ages and still you haven't learned how not to be egotistical."

There haven't been outspoken atheists for ages, just for the last couple hundred years and there has been some rather marked progress. It use to be 0% after all. BTW. Your 85% Christians includes Catholics.

Theunis said...

As I said everything I say you twist to suit your own opinion because love to shoot christians down.
a Wolf in sheep clothing is not a christian in this regard we are talking about the Roman Catholic Church. Or more plainly the government of the RCC. The top dogs.
The members are deceived by them.
Twisting and turning is a nice game and digressing from the main topic is even better isn't it?

You got it screwed up quite a bit the RCC took over christianity, they did not father it.

Face the facts. Your reading matter is very selective and totally biased.
Funny if you read any old book you will find knowledge and things that are still applicable to life today.

You have no evidence of who you really are. You can only say I think therefore I am. Yet who you are remains a brainwashed person making you believe you are who you think you are, and You have no evidence to the contrary. Except that I have now revealed to you that you are brainwashed but because of your brainwashing you will never accept it.

We know the Koran is a partial history of the Arabs and the Old Testament in the bible as it stands is the Jewish history. We all know that is not the only history. Go find some more sites about archaeology. How about Helen of Troy? Go to China, Go to India, Go to the ancient Americas, by this I don't mean ancient as such but before the caucasians set foot on them. Doing a quick google as you are inclined to do and reading it up in a wiki will not truly answer you questions. Invariably the wikis ask that they be edited or new knowledge be added.

History of Atheist isn't just about outspoken. You have convinced me that you have a dangerous smattering of History and ancient history which you continually try to use to your advantage. Apart here from when presented with facts you call them a lie. (Because of your indoctrination)
Your reality is yours but there are other realities for other people because "as you think so you are" is not only an ancient saying it is a modern day psychological fact. One day you may awaken from your dream.

Theunis said...

This has been an investigation into other realities.

The conclusion to these discussion is to me quite obvious.
If we consider brothers who are subjected to cruelty then one would jump left and the other would jump to the right.
One would say this cruelty perpetrated against me means there is no good. The other would say there must be more to life than this cruelty and finds something else which he regards as good. Which crudely put means that we are indoctrinated or brainwashed into our belief systems.

Atheism and Theism what are they. They are merely Yin and Yan the positive and the negative striving for balance. Who is Yin who is Yan is not possible to say for either side considers themselves positive and the other negative.
Without this eternal struggle entropy would set in.

I have flayed the Roman Catholic Church, of old not the modern RCC who does attempt to do what was originally intended but like us all sometimes fail because of what we have been taught by others and not because what life has taught us. Obstinate, pigheaded egotistical supremacy thoughts remains our downfall.

I see both sides of the story and would do the same I have done here if this was a Christian blog which will in all probability be my next visit.

My request is stop and think, there is a human on the receiving end, why try to destroy his faith and beliefs, Do you not believe there is nothing and conversely does he not believe there is something; are you both then not believing something? The one belief system says this is nonsense and the other says there must be something more.

For my own reasons I visited your blog to see how you think. I could laughingly say I know you are brainwashed because I brainwashed you and I am now checking up on my handiwork and there is no way what sover that you can refute what I say. Nevertheless as I said it was a mind game against which there is no defense.

Tatarize said...

I'm just generally opposed to strange squabbles. Hating on the RCC is fine. But they are Christians. Sure, they've killed other christian groups, but that doesn't make them unchristian.

There are plenty of things in archeology. There really was a Troy. There are plenty of cool things. But, the archeology for the middle east says the Bible is mostly a lie. The truth is pretty interesting too. But, pretty much everything from bondage in Egypt to vast empire of David is crap. The fact that there's other archeology doesn't negate that the real archeology in the region is wrong. At best David was a petty ruler of a cow town of a few hundred people. We have letters from the time period that mentions Israel and one involves a king sending help to the vast empire of the Israelites by sending ten men. They were an absolutely tiny group of people, they didn't take over in a glorious conquest, they took over as a political movement. The conquest of Joshua never happened and the people just made up stories about various ruins. They don't even date to the same time.

You can't have a dangerous smattering of history. The truth isn't really dangerous. History is history. And the fact that they made it up to glorify their past tells us a lot, but don't confuse the story for history.

Theism and atheism aren't ying and yang, anymore than somebody who wears a tin foil hat so the aliens visitors can't read his mind, and somebody who doubts there are alien visitors are two sides of the same coin.

You can dis the RCC all you want. The upper rungs care more about sin than crime and therefore view value the their group hierarchy more than priests molesting children. I'm not defending the RCC. Few religious groups are out trying to stop condom use in regions where AIDS is epidemic, and the RCC is killing people in that regard. The problem is they are Christians. And without the Church, Christianity would not be as remotely dominant as it is today.